SN 22.89 — Khemaka — The Elder Khemaka

66 aligned pairs · 13 peyyāla markers, 13 with a proposed filler · translator Thanissaro Bhikkhu — held back from the glossary

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Pāli

89 (7). Khemakasuttaṃ

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

89 (7). Khemaka

Pāli

Ekaṃ samayaṃ sambahulā therā bhikkhū kosambiyaṃ viharanti ghositārāme. Tena kho pana

samayena āyasmā khemako badarikārāme viharati ābādhiko dukkhito bāḷhagilāno.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

On one occasion many elder monks were staying at Kosambi in Ghosita's Park. And at that time Ven. Khemaka was staying at the Jujube Tree Park, diseased, in pain, severely ill.

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

At one time several senior mendicants were staying near Kosambī in Ghosita’s monastery.

Now at that time Venerable Khemaka was staying in the Jujube Tree Monastery, and he was sick, suffering, gravely ill.

Pāli

Atha kho therā bhikkhū sāyanhasamayaṃ paṭisallānā vuṭṭhitā āyasmantaṃ dāsakaṃ āmantesuṃ – ‘‘ehi tvaṃ, āvuso dāsaka, yena khemako bhikkhu tenupasaṅkama; upasaṅkamitvā khemakaṃ bhikkhuṃ evaṃ vadehi – ‘therā taṃ, āvuso khemaka, evamāhaṃsu – kacci te, āvuso, khamanīyaṃ, kacci yāpanīyaṃ, kacci dukkhā vedanā paṭikkamanti no abhikkamanti, paṭikkamosānaṃ paññāyati no abhikkamo’’’ti?

‘‘Evamāvuso’’ti kho āyasmā dāsako therānaṃ bhikkhūnaṃ paṭissutvā yenāyasmā khemako

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Then in the late afternoon the elder monks left their seclusion and addressed Ven. Dasaka, [saying,] "Come, friend Dasaka. Go to the monk Khemaka and on arrival say to him, 'The elders, friend Khemaka, say to you, "We hope you are getting better, friend. We hope you are comfortable. We hope that your pains are lessening and not increasing. We hope that there are signs of their lessening, and not of their increasing."'"

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

In the late afternoon those senior mendicants came out of retreat and addressed Venerable Dāsaka,

“Yes, reverends,” replied Dāsaka. He went to Khemaka and said to him:

Pāli

tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā āyasmantaṃ khemakaṃ etadavoca – ‘‘therā taṃ, āvuso khemaka,

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Replying, "As you say, friends," to the elder monks, Ven. Dasaka went to Ven. Khemaka and on arrival said to him: "The elders, friend Khemaka, say to you, 'We hope you are getting better, friend. We hope you are comfortable. We hope that your pains are lessening and not increasing. We hope that there are signs of their lessening, and not of their increasing.'"

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

‘Reverend Khemaka, the seniors

Pāli

evamāhaṃsu – ‘kacci te, āvuso, khamanīyaṃ…pe… no abhikkamo’’’ti?

proposed fillerin this suttaconf highsource r0l3

kacci yāpanīyaṃ, kacci dukkhā vedanā paṭikkamanti no abhikkamanti, paṭikkamosānaṃ paññāyati

anchored on “…te āvuso khamanīyaṃ” … “no abhikkamo ti…”

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

"I am not getting better, my friend. I am not comfortable. My extreme pains are increasing, not lessening. There are signs of their increasing, and not of their lessening."

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

hope you’re keeping well; they hope you’re all right. They hope your pain is fading, not growing; that its fading is evident, not its growing.”

Pāli

‘‘Na me, āvuso, khamanīyaṃ na yāpanīyaṃ…pe… abhikkamosānaṃ paññāyati no paṭikkamo’’ti.

Atha kho āyasmā dāsako yena therā bhikkhū tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā there bhikkhū

proposed fillerfrom another suttaconf highsource sn35.87:3.9attested 1×

bāḷhā me dukkhā vedanā abhikkamanti no paṭikkamanti

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Then Ven. Dasaka went to the elder monks and, on arrival, said to them, "The monk Khemaka has said to me, 'I am not getting better, my friend. I am not comfortable. My extreme pains are increasing, not lessening. There are signs of their increasing, and not of their lessening.'"

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

“Reverend, I’m not keeping well, I’m not getting by. My pain is terrible and growing, not fading; its growing is evident, not its fading.”

Then Dāsaka went to those senior mendicants and told them what had happened. They said,

Pāli

etadavoca – ‘‘khemako, āvuso, bhikkhu evamāha – ‘na me, āvuso, khamanīyaṃ…pe… abhikkamosānaṃ paññāyati no paṭikkamo’’’ti.

proposed fillerin this suttaconf highsource r0l7

na yāpanīyaṃ

anchored on “…na me āvuso khamanīyaṃ” … “abhikkamosānaṃ paññāyati no paṭikkamo…”

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

"Come, friend Dasaka. Go to the monk Khemaka and on arrival say to him, 'The elders, friend Khemaka, say to you, "Concerning these five clinging-aggregates described by the Blessed One — i.e.,

Pāli

‘‘Ehi tvaṃ, āvuso dāsaka, yena khemako bhikkhu

tenupasaṅkama; upasaṅkamitvā khemakaṃ bhikkhuṃ evaṃ vadehi – ‘therā taṃ, āvuso khemaka, evamāhaṃsu – pañcime, āvuso, upādānakkhandhā vuttā bhagavatā, seyyathidaṃ –

rūpupādānakkhandho,

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

form as a clinging-aggregate,

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

“Please, Reverend Dāsaka, go to the mendicant Khemaka and say to him:

‘Reverend Khemaka, the seniors

the grasping aggregates of form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness.

Pāli

vedanupādānakkhandho,

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

feeling as a clinging-aggregate,

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

the grasping aggregates of form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness.

Pāli

saññupādānakkhandho,

saṅkhārupādānakkhandho,

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

perception as a clinging-aggregate,

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

the grasping aggregates of form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness.

Pāli

viññāṇupādānakkhandho.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

fabrications as a clinging-aggregate,

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

the grasping aggregates of form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness.

Pāli

Imesu āyasmā khemako pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu kiñci attaṃ vā attaniyaṃ vā samanupassatī’’’ti?

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

(no English line)

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

Do you regard anything among these five grasping aggregates as self or as belonging to self?’”

Pāli

‘‘Evamāvuso’’ti kho āyasmā dāsako therānaṃ bhikkhūnaṃ paṭissutvā yenāyasmā khemako

tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā…pe… therā taṃ, āvuso khemaka, evamāhaṃsu – ‘‘pañcime, āvuso,

upādānakkhandhā vuttā bhagavatā, seyyathidaṃ – rūpupādānakkhandho…pe… viññāṇupādānakkhandho. Imesu āyasmā khemako pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu kiñci attaṃ vā

proposed fillerin this suttaconf highsource r0l5

āyasmantaṃ khemakaṃ etadavoca – ‘‘therā taṃ, āvuso khemaka, evamāhaṃsu – ‘kacci te, āvuso, khamanīyaṃ no abhikkamo’’’ti? ‘‘Na me, āvuso, khamanīyaṃ na yāpanīyaṃ abhikkamosānaṃ paññāyati no paṭikkamo’’ti. Atha kho āyasmā dāsako yena therā bhikkhū tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā there bhikkhū etadavoca – ‘‘khemako, āvuso, bhikkhu evamāha – ‘na me, āvuso, khamanīyaṃ abhikkamosānaṃ paññāyati no paṭikkamo’’’ti. ‘‘Ehi tvaṃ, āvuso dāsaka, yena khemako bhikkhu tenupasaṅkama; upasaṅkamitvā khemakaṃ bhikkhuṃ evaṃ vadehi

anchored on “…dāsako therānaṃ bhikkhūnaṃ paṭissutvā yenāyasmā khemako tenupasaṅkami upasaṅkamitvā” … “therā taṃ āvuso khemaka evamāhaṃsu pañcime āvuso upādānakkhandhā…”

proposed fillerin this suttaconf highsource r0l13

vedanupādānakkhandho, saññupādānakkhandho, saṅkhārupādānakkhandho

anchored on “…evamāhaṃsu pañcime āvuso upādānakkhandhā vuttā bhagavatā seyyathidaṃ rūpupādānakkhandho” … “viññāṇupādānakkhandho Imesu āyasmā khemako pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu kiñci attaṃ…”

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

consciousness as a clinging-aggregate:

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

“Yes, reverends,” replied Dāsaka. He relayed the message to Khemaka, who replied:

‘Reverend Khemaka, the seniors say that

Pāli

attaniyaṃ vā samanupassatī’’ti?

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Do you assume anything with regard to these five clinging-aggregates to be self or belonging to self?"'"

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

Do you regard anything among these five grasping aggregates as self or as belonging to self?’”

Pāli

‘‘Pañcime, āvuso, upādānakkhandhā vuttā bhagavatā, seyyathidaṃ –

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Replying, "As you say, friends," to the elder monks, Ven. Dasaka went to Ven. Khemaka and on arrival said to him, "The elders, friend Khemaka, say to you, 'Concerning these five clinging-aggregates described by the Blessed One — i.e., form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate: Do you assume anything with regard to these five clinging-aggregates to be self or belonging to self?'"

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

these five grasping aggregates have been taught by the Buddha, that is:

Pāli

rūpupādānakkhandho…pe… viññāṇupādānakkhandho. Imesu khvāhaṃ, āvuso, pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu na kiñci attaṃ vā attaniyaṃ vā samanupassāmī’’ti.

proposed fillerin this suttaconf mediumsource r0l13

vedanupādānakkhandho, saññupādānakkhandho, saṅkhārupādānakkhandho

anchored on “…seyyathidaṃ rūpupādānakkhandho” … “viññāṇupādānakkhandho Imesu…”

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

"Friend, concerning these five clinging-aggregates described by the Blessed One — i.e., form as a clinging-aggregate... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate: With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, there is nothing I assume to be self or belonging to self."

Pāli

Atha kho āyasmā dāsako yena therā bhikkhū tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā there bhikkhū

etadavoca – ‘‘khemako, āvuso, bhikkhu evamāha – ‘pañcime, āvuso, upādānakkhandhā vuttā bhagavatā, seyyathidaṃ – rūpupādānakkhandho…pe… viññāṇupādānakkhandho. Imesu khvāhaṃ, āvuso, pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu na kiñci attaṃ vā attaniyaṃ vā samanupassāmī’’’ti.

‘‘Ehi tvaṃ, āvuso dāsaka, yena khemako bhikkhu tenupasaṅkama; upasaṅkamitvā khemakaṃ bhikkhuṃ evaṃ vadehi – ‘therā taṃ, āvuso khemaka, evamāhaṃsu – pañcime, āvuso, upādānakkhandhā vuttā bhagavatā, seyyathidaṃ –

proposed fillerin this suttaconf highsource r0l20

anchored on “…āvuso upādānakkhandhā vuttā bhagavatā seyyathidaṃ rūpupādānakkhandho” … “viññāṇupādānakkhandho Imesu khvāhaṃ āvuso pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu…”

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Then Ven. Dasaka went to the elder monks and, on arrival, said to them, "The monk Khemaka has said to me, 'Friend, concerning these five clinging-aggregates described by the Blessed One — i.e., form as a clinging-aggregate... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate: With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, there is nothing I assume to be self or belonging to self.'"

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

Then Dāsaka went to those senior mendicants and told them what had happened. They said:

“Please, Reverend Dāsaka, go to the mendicant Khemaka and say to him:

Pāli

rūpupādānakkhandho…pe… viññāṇupādānakkhandho.

proposed fillerin this suttaconf lowsource r0l13

vedanupādānakkhandho, saññupādānakkhandho, saṅkhārupādānakkhandho

anchored on “…vuttā bhagavatā seyyathidaṃ rūpupādānakkhandho” … “viññāṇupādānakkhandho…”

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

"Come, friend Dasaka. Go to the monk Khemaka and on arrival say to him, 'The elders, friend Khemaka, say to you, "Concerning these five clinging-aggregates described by the Blessed One — i.e., form as a clinging-aggregate... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate:

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

the grasping aggregates of form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness.

Pāli

No ce kirāyasmā khemako imesu pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu kiñci attaṃ vā attaniyaṃ vā samanupassati. Tenahāyasmā khemako arahaṃ khīṇāsavo’’’ti.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

If, with regard to these five clinging-aggregates, Ven. Khemaka assumes nothing to be self or belonging to self, then Ven. Khemaka is an arahant, devoid of fermentations."'"

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

If, as it seems, Venerable Khemaka does not regard anything among these five grasping aggregates as self or as belonging to self,

Pāli

‘‘Evamāvuso’’ti kho āyasmā dāsako therānaṃ bhikkhūnaṃ paṭissutvā yenāyasmā khemako…pe…

therā taṃ, āvuso khemaka, evamāhaṃsu – ‘‘pañcime, āvuso, upādānakkhandhā vuttā bhagavatā, seyyathidaṃ – rūpupādānakkhandho…pe… viññāṇupādānakkhandho;

no ce kirāyasmā khemako imesu pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu kiñci attaṃ vā attaniyaṃ vā samanupassati, tenahāyasmā khemako arahaṃ

proposed fillerin this suttaconf highsource r0l19

tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā

anchored on “…kho āyasmā dāsako therānaṃ bhikkhūnaṃ paṭissutvā yenāyasmā khemako” … “therā taṃ āvuso khemaka evamāhaṃsu pañcime āvuso upādānakkhandhā…”

proposed fillerin this suttaconf highsource r0l20

viññāṇupādānakkhandho. Imesu āyasmā khemako pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu kiñci attaṃ vā attaniyaṃ vā samanupassatī’’ti? ‘‘Pañcime, āvuso, upādānakkhandhā vuttā bhagavatā, seyyathidaṃ – rūpupādānakkhandho viññāṇupādānakkhandho. Imesu khvāhaṃ, āvuso, pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu na kiñci attaṃ vā attaniyaṃ vā samanupassāmī’’ti. Atha kho āyasmā dāsako yena therā bhikkhū tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā there bhikkhū etadavoca – ‘‘khemako, āvuso, bhikkhu evamāha – ‘pañcime, āvuso, upādānakkhandhā vuttā bhagavatā, seyyathidaṃ – rūpupādānakkhandho viññāṇupādānakkhandho. Imesu khvāhaṃ, āvuso, pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu na kiñci attaṃ vā attaniyaṃ vā samanupassāmī’’’ti. ‘‘Ehi tvaṃ, āvuso dāsaka, yena khemako bhikkhu tenupasaṅkama; upasaṅkamitvā khemakaṃ bhikkhuṃ evaṃ vadehi – ‘therā taṃ, āvuso khemaka, evamāhaṃsu – pañcime, āvuso, upādānakkhandhā vuttā bhagavatā, seyyathidaṃ – rūpupādānakkhandho

anchored on “…evamāhaṃsu pañcime āvuso upādānakkhandhā vuttā bhagavatā seyyathidaṃ rūpupādānakkhandho” … “viññāṇupādānakkhandho no ce kirāyasmā khemako imesu pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu…”

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

“Yes, reverends,” replied Dāsaka. He relayed the message to Khemaka, who replied:

If, as it seems, Venerable Khemaka does not regard anything among these five grasping aggregates as self or as belonging to self,

Pāli

khīṇāsavo’’ti.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

If, with regard to these five clinging-aggregates, Ven. Khemaka assumes nothing to be self or belonging to self, then Ven. Khemaka is an arahant, devoid of fermentations.'"

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

then he is a perfected one, with defilements ended.’”

Pāli

‘‘Pañcime, āvuso, upādānakkhandhā vuttā bhagavatā, seyyathidaṃ –

rūpupādānakkhandho…pe… viññāṇupādānakkhandho.

proposed fillerin this suttaconf highsource r0l20

anchored on “…āvuso upādānakkhandhā vuttā bhagavatā seyyathidaṃ rūpupādānakkhandho” … “viññāṇupādānakkhandho Imesu khvāhaṃ āvuso pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu…”

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Pāli

Imesu khvāhaṃ, āvuso, pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu na kiñci attaṃ vā attaniyaṃ vā samanupassāmi, na camhi arahaṃ khīṇāsavo;

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, there is nothing I assume to be self or belonging to self, and yet I am not an arahant.

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

I do not regard anything among these five grasping aggregates as self or as belonging to self, yet I am not a perfected one, with defilements ended.

Pāli

api ca me, āvuso, pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu ‘asmī’ti adhigataṃ, ‘ayamahamasmī’ti na ca

samanupassāmī’’ti.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, 'I am' has not been overcome, although I don't assume that 'I am this.'"

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

For when it comes to the five grasping aggregates I’m not rid of the conceit ‘I am’. But I don’t regard anything as ‘I am this’.”

Pāli

Atha kho āyasmā dāsako yena therā bhikkhū…pe… there bhikkhū etadavoca – ‘‘khemako, āvuso,

bhikkhu evamāha – pañcime, āvuso, upādānakkhandhā vuttā bhagavatā, seyyathidaṃ –

rūpupādānakkhandho…pe… viññāṇupādānakkhandho.

proposed fillerin this suttaconf highsource r0l24

tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā

anchored on “…ti Atha kho āyasmā dāsako yena therā bhikkhū” … “there bhikkhū etadavoca khemako āvuso bhikkhu evamāha pañcime…”

proposed fillerin this suttaconf highsource r0l30

viññāṇupādānakkhandho; no ce kirāyasmā khemako imesu pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu kiñci attaṃ vā attaniyaṃ vā samanupassati, tenahāyasmā khemako arahaṃ khīṇāsavo’’ti. ‘‘Pañcime, āvuso, upādānakkhandhā vuttā bhagavatā, seyyathidaṃ – rūpupādānakkhandho

anchored on “…āvuso upādānakkhandhā vuttā bhagavatā seyyathidaṃ rūpupādānakkhandho” … “viññāṇupādānakkhandho Imesu khvāhaṃ āvuso pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu…”

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

Then Dāsaka went to those senior mendicants and told them what had happened. They said:

the grasping aggregates of form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness.

Pāli

Imesu khvāhaṃ, āvuso, pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu na kiñci attaṃ vā attaniyaṃ vā samanupassāmi, na camhi arahaṃ khīṇāsavo; api ca me, āvuso, pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu ‘asmī’ti adhigataṃ, ‘ayamahamasmī’ti na ca samanupassāmī’’ti.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, there is nothing I assume to be self or belonging to self, and yet I am not an arahant. With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, "I am" has not been overcome, although I don't assume that "I am this."'"

Pāli

‘‘Ehi tvaṃ, āvuso dāsaka, yena khemako bhikkhu tenupasaṅkama; upasaṅkamitvā khemakaṃ

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

"Come, friend Dasaka. Go to the monk Khemaka and on arrival say to him, 'The elders, friend Khemaka, say to you,

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

“Please, Reverend Dāsaka, go to the mendicant Khemaka and say to him:

Pāli

bhikkhuṃ evaṃ vadehi –

‘therā taṃ, āvuso khemaka, evamāhaṃsu – yametaṃ, āvuso khemaka, asmīti vadesi, kimetaṃ asmīti vadesi?

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

"Friend Khemaka, this 'I am' of which you speak: what do you say 'I am'?

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

“Please, Reverend Dāsaka, go to the mendicant Khemaka and say to him:

‘Reverend Khemaka, the seniors say that

Pāli

Rūpaṃ asmīti vadesi, aññatra rūpā asmīti vadesi,

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Do you say, 'I am form,' or do you say, 'I am something other than form'?

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

Is it form or apart from form?

Pāli

vedanaṃ…

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Do you say, 'I am feeling...

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

Is it feeling …

Pāli

sannaṃ…

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

perception...

Pāli

saṅkhāre…

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

fabrications...

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

choices …

Pāli

viññāṇaṃ asmīti vadesi, aññatra viññāṇā asmīti vadesi.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

consciousness,' or do you say, 'I am something other than consciousness'?

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

consciousness, or apart from consciousness?

Pāli

Yametaṃ, āvuso khemaka, asmīti

vadesi. Kimetaṃ asmīti vadesī’’’ti?

‘‘Evamāvuso’’ti kho āyasmā dāsako therānaṃ bhikkhūnaṃ paṭissutvā yenāyasmā khemako

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

This 'I am' of which you speak: what do you say 'I am'?"'"

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

when you say “I am”, what is it that you’re talking about?

When you say “I am”, what is it that you’re talking about?”

“Yes, reverends,” replied Dāsaka. He relayed the message to Khemaka, who replied:

Pāli

tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā āyasmantaṃ khemakaṃ etadavoca – therā taṃ, āvuso khemaka,

evamāhaṃsu –

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Replying, "As you say, friends," to the elder monks, Ven. Dasaka went to Ven. Khemaka and on arrival said to him,

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

‘Reverend Khemaka, the seniors ask,

Pāli

‘‘yametaṃ, āvuso khemaka, ‘asmī’ti vadesi, kimetaṃ ‘asmī’ti vadesi? Rūpaṃ ‘asmī’ti vadesi aññatra rūpā ‘asmī’ti vadesi? Vedanaṃ… sannaṃ… saṅkhāre… viññāṇaṃ ‘asmī’ti vadesi aññatra viññāṇā ‘asmī’ti vadesi? Yametaṃ, āvuso khemaka, ‘asmī’ti vadesi, kimetaṃ ‘asmī’ti vadesi’’ti?

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

"The elders, friend Khemaka, say to you, 'Friend Khemaka, this "I am" of which you speak: what do you say "I am"? Do you say, "I am form," or do you say, "I am something other than form"? Do you say, "I am feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness," or do you say, "I am something other than consciousness"'? This "I am" of which you speak: what do you say "I am"?'"

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

Is it feeling …

Pāli

‘‘Alaṃ, āvuso dāsaka, kiṃ imāya sandhāvanikāya! Āharāvuso, daṇḍaṃ; ahameva yena therā

bhikkhū tenupasaṅkamissāmī’’ti.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

"Enough, friend Dasaka. What is accomplished by this running back & forth? Fetch me my staff. I will go to the elder monks myself."

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

“Enough, Reverend Dāsaka! What’s the point in running back and forth?

I’ll go to see the senior mendicants myself.”

Pāli

Atha kho āyasmā khemako daṇḍamolubbha yena therā bhikkhū tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā

therehi bhikkhūhi saddhiṃ sammodi. Sammodanīyaṃ kathaṃ sāraṇīyaṃ vītisāretvā ekamantaṃ nisīdi.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Then Ven. Khemaka, leaning on his staff, went to the elder monks and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with them. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side.

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

Then Venerable Khemaka, leaning on a staff, went to those senior mendicants and exchanged greetings with them.

When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side. They said to him:

Pāli

Ekamantaṃ nisinnaṃ kho āyasmantaṃ khemakaṃ therā bhikkhū etadavocuṃ – ‘‘yametaṃ, āvuso

khemaka, ‘asmī’ti vadesi, kimetaṃ ‘asmī’ti vadesi? Rūpaṃ ‘asmī’ti vadesi, aññatra rūpā ‘asmī’ti vadesi? Vedanaṃ… sannaṃ… saṅkhāre… viññāṇaṃ ‘asmī’ti vadesi, aññatra viññāṇā ‘asmī’ti vadesi? Yametaṃ, āvuso khemaka, ‘asmī’ti vadesi, kimetaṃ ‘asmī’ti vadesī’’ti?

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

As he was sitting there, the elder monks said to him, "Friend Khemaka, this 'I am' of which you speak: what do you say 'I am'? Do you say, 'I am form,' or do you say, 'I am something other than form'? Do you say, 'I am feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness,' or do you say, 'I am something other than consciousness''? This 'I am' of which you speak: what do you say 'I am'?"

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side. They said to him:

Pāli

‘‘Na khvāhaṃ, āvuso, rūpaṃ ‘asmī’ti vadāmi; napi aññatra rūpā ‘asmī’ti vadāmi. Na vedanaṃ… na sannaṃ… na saṅkhāre… na viññāṇaṃ ‘asmī’ti vadāmi; napi aññatra viññāṇā ‘asmī’ti vadāmi.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

"Friends, it's not that I say 'I am form,' nor do I say 'I am something other than form.' It's not that I say, 'I am feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness,' nor do I say, 'I am something other than consciousness.'

Pāli

Api ca me, āvuso, pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu ‘asmī’ti adhigataṃ ‘ayamahamasmī’ti na ca samanupassāmi’’.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, 'I am' has not been overcome, although I don't assume that 'I am this.'

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

For when it comes to the five grasping aggregates I’m not rid of the conceit ‘I am’. But I don’t regard anything as ‘I am this’.

Pāli

‘‘Seyyathāpi, āvuso, uppalassa vā padumassa vā puṇḍarīkassa vā gandho. Yo nu kho evaṃ vadeyya

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

"It's just like the scent of a blue, red, or white lotus: If someone were to call it

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

It’s like the scent of a blue water lily, or a pink or white lotus.

Pāli

– ‘pattassa gandho’ti vā

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

the scent of a petal or

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

Would it be right to say that the scent belongs to the petals or the stalk or the pistil?”

Pāli

‘vaṇṇassa gandho’ti vā

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

the scent of the color or

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

Would it be right to say that the scent belongs to the petals or the stalk or the pistil?”

Pāli

‘kiñjakkhassa gandho’ti vā

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

the scent of a filament,

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

Would it be right to say that the scent belongs to the petals or the stalk or the pistil?”

Pāli

sammā nu kho so vadamāno vadeyyā’’ti?

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

would he be speaking correctly?"

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

Would it be right to say that the scent belongs to the petals or the stalk or the pistil?”

Pāli

‘‘No hetaṃ, āvuso’’.

‘‘Yathā kathaṃ, panāvuso, sammā byākaramāno

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

"No, friend."

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

“No, reverend.”

“Then, reverends, how should it be said?”

Pāli

byākareyyā’’ti?

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

"Then how would he describe it if he were describing it correctly?"

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

“Then, reverends, how should it be said?”

Pāli

‘‘‘Pupphassa gandho’ti kho, āvuso, sammā byākaramāno byākareyyā’’ti.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

"As the scent of the flower: That's how he would describe it if he were describing it correctly."

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

“It would be right to say that the scent belongs to the flower.”

Pāli

‘‘Evameva khvāhaṃ, āvuso, na rūpaṃ ‘asmī’ti vadāmi, napi aññatra rūpā ‘asmī’ti vadāmi. Na vedanaṃ… na sannaṃ… na saṅkhāre… na viññāṇaṃ ‘asmī’ti vadāmi, napi aññatra viññāṇā ‘asmī’ti vadāmi. Api ca me, āvuso, pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu ‘asmī’ti adhigataṃ ‘ayamahamasmī’ti na ca samanupassāmi’’.

‘‘Kiñcāpi, āvuso, ariyasāvakassa pañcorambhāgiyāni saṃyojanāni pahīnāni bhavanti, atha khvassa

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

"In the same way, friends, it's not that I say 'I am form,' nor do I say 'I am other than form.' It's not that I say, 'I am feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness,' nor do I say, 'I am something other than consciousness.' With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, 'I am' has not been overcome, although I don't assume that 'I am this.'

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

choices …

Although a noble disciple has given up the five lower fetters, they still have a lingering residue of the conceit ‘I am’, the desire ‘I am’, and the underlying tendency ‘I am’ which has not been eradicated.

Pāli

hoti – ‘yo ca pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu anusahagato asmīti māno, asmīti chando, asmīti anusayo asamūhato.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

"Friends, even though a noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, he still has with regard to the five clinging-aggregates a lingering residual 'I am' conceit, an 'I am' desire, an 'I am' obsession.

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

Pāli

So aparena samayena pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu udayabbayānupassī viharati –

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

But at a later time he keeps focusing on the phenomena of arising & passing away with regard to the five clinging-aggregates:

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

After some time they meditate observing rise and fall in the five grasping aggregates.

Pāli

iti rūpaṃ,

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

'Such is form,

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

‘Such is form, such is the origin of form, such is the disappearance of form.

Pāli

iti rūpassa samudayo,

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

such its origin,

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

‘Such is form, such is the origin of form, such is the disappearance of form.

Pāli

iti rūpassa atthaṅgamo;

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

such its disappearance.

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

‘Such is form, such is the origin of form, such is the disappearance of form.

Pāli

iti vedanā… iti sannā… iti saṅkhārā… iti viññāṇaṃ, iti viññāṇassa samudayo, iti viññāṇassa atthaṅgamo’ti.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.'

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

Such is feeling …

Pāli

Tassimesu pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu

udayabbayānupassino viharato yopissa hoti pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu anusahagato ‘asmī’ti, māno

‘asmī’ti, chando ‘asmī’ti anusayo asamūhato, sopi samugghātaṃ gacchati.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

As he keeps focusing on the arising & passing away of these five clinging-aggregates, the lingering residual 'I am' conceit, 'I am' desire, 'I am' obsession is fully obliterated.

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

As they do so, that lingering residue is eradicated.

Pāli

‘‘Seyyathāpi, āvuso, vatthaṃ saṃkiliṭṭhaṃ malaggahitaṃ. Tamenaṃ sāmikā rajakassa

anupadajjuṃ. Tamenaṃ rajako ūse vā khāre vā gomaye vā sammadditvā acche udake vikkhāleti.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

"Just like a cloth, dirty & stained: Its owners give it over to a washerman, who scrubs it with salt earth or lye or cow-dung and then rinses it in clear water.

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

Suppose there was a cloth that was dirty and soiled, so the owners give it to a launderer.

The launderer kneads it thoroughly with salt, lye, and cow dung, and rinses it in clear water.

Pāli

Kiñcāpi taṃ hoti vatthaṃ parisuddhaṃ pariyodātaṃ, atha khvassa hoti yeva anusahagato ūsagandho vā

khāragandho vā gomayagandho vā asamūhato. Tamenaṃ rajako sāmikānaṃ deti. Tamenaṃ sāmikā

gandhaparibhāvite karaṇḍake nikkhipanti. Yopissa hoti anusahagato ūsagandho vā khāragandho vā

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Now even though the cloth is clean & spotless, it still has a lingering residual scent of salt earth or lye or cow-dung. The washerman gives it to the owners, the owners put it away in a scent-infused wicker hamper, and its lingering residual scent of salt earth, lye, or cow-dung is fully obliterated.

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

Although that cloth is clean and bright, it still has a lingering scent of salt, lye, or cow dung that had not been eradicated.

The launderer returns it to its owners, who store it in a fragrant casket.

And that lingering scent would be eradicated.

Pāli

gomayagandho vā asamūhato, sopi samugghātaṃ gacchati.

Evameva kho, āvuso, kiñcāpi ariyasāvakassa

pañcorambhāgiyāni saṃyojanāni pahīnāni bhavanti, atha khvassa hoti yeva pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu anusahagato ‘asmī’ti, māno ‘asmī’ti, chando ‘asmī’ti anusayo asamūhato. So aparena samayena pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu udayabbayānupassī viharati.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

"In the same way, friends, even though a noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, he still has with regard to the five clinging-aggregates a lingering residual 'I am' conceit, an 'I am' desire, an 'I am' obsession. But at a later time he keeps focusing on the phenomena of arising & passing away with regard to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance.

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

And that lingering scent would be eradicated.

In the same way, although a noble disciple has given up the five lower fetters, they still have a lingering residue of the conceit ‘I am’, the desire ‘I am’, and the underlying tendency ‘I am’ which has not been eradicated.

After some time they meditate observing rise and fall in the five grasping aggregates.

Pāli

‘Iti rūpaṃ, iti rūpassa samudayo, iti rūpassa

atthaṅgamo;

iti vedanā… iti sannā… iti saṅkhārā… iti viññāṇaṃ, iti viññāṇassa samudayo, iti viññāṇassa atthaṅgamo’ti.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.'

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

‘Such is form, such is the origin of form, such is the disappearance of form.

Such is feeling …

Pāli

Tassa imesu pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu udayabbayānupassino viharato yopissa hoti pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu anusahagato ‘asmī’ti, māno ‘asmī’ti, chando ‘asmī’ti anusayo asamūhato, sopi samugghātaṃ gacchatī’’ti.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

As he keeps focusing on the arising & passing away of these five clinging-aggregates, the lingering residual 'I am' conceit, 'I am' desire, 'I am' obsession is fully obliterated."

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

As they do so, that lingering residue is eradicated.”

Pāli

Evaṃ vutte, therā bhikkhū āyasmantaṃ khemakaṃ etadavocuṃ – ‘‘na kho mayaṃ āyasmantaṃ khemakaṃ vihesāpekhā pucchimha, api cāyasmā khemako pahosi tassa bhagavato sāsanaṃ vitthārena ācikkhituṃ desetuṃ paññāpetuṃ paṭṭhapetuṃ vivarituṃ vibhajituṃ uttānīkātuṃ.

Tayidaṃ āyasmatā khemakena tassa bhagavato sāsanaṃ vitthārena ācikkhitaṃ desitaṃ paññāpitaṃ

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

When this was said, the elder monks said to Ven. Khemaka, "We didn't cross-examine Ven. Khemaka with the purpose of troubling him, just that [we thought] Ven. Khemaka is capable of declaring the Blessed One's message, teaching it, describing it, setting it forth, revealing it, explaining it, making it plain —

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

When he said this, the senior mendicants said to Venerable Khemaka,

And that’s just what you’ve done.”

Pāli

paṭṭhapitaṃ vivaritaṃ vibhajitaṃ uttānīkata’’nti.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

just as he has in fact declared it, taught it, described it, set it forth, revealed it, explained it, made it plain."

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

And that’s just what you’ve done.”

Pāli

Idamavoca āyasmā khemako. Attamanā therā bhikkhū āyasmato khemakassa bhāsitaṃ abhinanduṃ. Imasmiñca pana veyyākaraṇasmiṃ bhaññamāne saṭṭhimattānaṃ therānaṃ bhikkhūnaṃ

anupādāya āsavehi cittāni vimucciṃsu, āyasmato khemakassa cāti.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

That is what Ven. Khemaka said. Gratified, the elder monks delighted in his words. And while this explanation was being given, the minds of sixty-some monks, through no clinging, were fully released from fermentations — as was Ven. Khemaka's.

Bhikkhu Sujato · CC0

That is what Venerable Khemaka said.

And while this discourse was being spoken, the minds of sixty senior mendicants and of Venerable Khemaka were freed from defilements by not grasping.

Pāli

Sattamaṃ.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

End of the Seventh.

Pāli: Mahāsaṅgīti Tipiṭaka, CC0 public domain via SuttaCentral. English: Thanissaro Bhikkhu — https://www.dhammatalks.org/
Reproduced as freely distributable by decision of this project; no formal licence grant has been verified.